Hephaistion in the mosaic?

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Chun
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Re: Hephaistion in the mosaic?

Post by Chun »

Considering it was made for King Kassander I would suggest that the figure ahead of Alexander would be Philotas and everyone would understand why he should be looking over his shoulder at the King!
Alexias
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Re: Odd thing about the Mosaic

Post by Alexias »

Susa the Great wrote: So, as I was looking at the A mosaic, I thought: why the heck the macedonians are depicted in such a small number, and the spears (a few too) are all down, while the persians are in greater number and the spears are up, and the whole thing focus on them, wth? Also --- the macedonians are smashed against the end of the left side.... So so odd. And Alexander is so so lower than Darius...

I say this because ages ago I had this Art HIstory classes, and the teacher said that, in Art, the winners are depicted with spears or swords up, while the loosers are all dismantled and low crested...

So I was wondering.... Why the pathos on this mosaic is in the persian side? Maybe someone who hated the fact that the victory was all Al's, and nonetheless asked for it to be made, maybe as a "haha, you won that day, but at least in this painting I can make your company look so small and dismantled! Here you win like a third-class warrior, while Darius loses in great style *draculesque laugh* " ( Art can be that magic, mate). After all, wasn't the original painting a comission by Cassander? *large large grin*
I think the reason is to depict the overwhelming numbers of the Persians. Darius is plainly heading out of the picture, his horses trampling his own men.
Susa the Great wrote: Ah, and as an afterthought, I don't think Hephaistion would have been in a depiction of that Issos frey because the sources mention him only after, in that visit to the persian tent with the women. I understand nevertheless, I used to be like that too -- wherever Alexander was, Hep was with him. But no Hep in Issos, I think.
This battle depicts Gaugamela rather than Issus. Hephaestion would have been fighting beside Alexander at Issus certainly though as he may well have been appointed as a Bodyguard after Halicarnassus, and I believe at Gaugamela he was commanding the squadron of Alexander's bodyguard. He was definitely present at Gaugamela because he was recorded as being among the wounded.
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Susa the Great
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Re: Odd thing about the Mosaic

Post by Susa the Great »

This battle depicts Gaugamela rather than Issus. Hephaestion would have been fighting beside Alexander at Issus certainly though as he may well have been appointed as a Bodyguard after Halicarnassus, and I believe at Gaugamela he was commanding the squadron of Alexander's bodyguard. He was definitely present at Gaugamela because he was recorded as being among the wounded.
Hey, wait a second. This is usually know as the Battle of Issus, is it not?

Ok, I got a "noone really knows" thing in Internet:

http://history-of-macedonia.com/2010/06 ... by-romans/

And this is very interesting, too. I was wondering why only certain parts are terribly spoilt, and this link gives some interesting hints on that as well!!
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Alexias
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Re: Hephaistion in the mosaic?

Post by Alexias »

Yes, you're right, although it could be either. In both Alexander was outnumbered and Darius ran away. The forest of upright spears in the background surely illustrates that they are not being used due to the press of bodies.

Thanks for the link. Interesting explanation for the wear on the mosaic!
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Re: Odd thing about the Mosaic

Post by sean_m »

Susa the Great wrote:
This battle depicts Gaugamela rather than Issus. Hephaestion would have been fighting beside Alexander at Issus certainly though as he may well have been appointed as a Bodyguard after Halicarnassus, and I believe at Gaugamela he was commanding the squadron of Alexander's bodyguard. He was definitely present at Gaugamela because he was recorded as being among the wounded.
Hey, wait a second. This is usually known as the Battle of Issus, is it not?
There are books and long articles arguing for Gaugamela (tree is wrong!), Issos (the sun is in the wrong direction and the ground is not very sandy!) and a generic battle. One good article is by Carl Nylander "The Standard of the Great King: A Problem in the Alexander Mosaic."

It does seem that the subject of the painting is the downfall of Darius, so Gaugamela might fit the subject better. Darius is physically in the centre, with people leaning away from him, bracketed between the oncoming Macedonians and the Persians who are just about to turn in flight. τροπή
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Paralus
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Re: Hephaistion in the mosaic?

Post by Paralus »

I've always inclined to Guagamela and for the reason Sean has mentioned: the end of Dareios. The forest of spears are Macedonian as they are too long to be hoplite spears of 8-9 feet. That next to the tree is a standout example. In art perspective is all and it can be difficult to cram in all that the artist wants to include. I've always "read" it as Alexander, the cavalry and the infantry about him taking the Persian centre as he rolls up the Persian left. So we have his wedge pressing as the "hammer" onto his phalanx - the sarisai of which are rendered in "dense array".

Arrian's description of Dareios fleeing faced with Alexander pressing in and with the Macedonian sarisai pressing at him in dense array always comes to mind.
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sean_m
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Re: Hephaistion in the mosaic?

Post by sean_m »

Paralus wrote:I've always inclined to Guagamela and for the reason Sean has mentioned: the end of Dareios. The forest of spears are Macedonian as they are too long to be hoplite spears of 8-9 feet. That next to the tree is a standout example. In art perspective is all and it can be difficult to cram in all that the artist wants to include. I've always "read" it as Alexander, the cavalry and the infantry about him taking the Persian centre as he rolls up the Persian left. So we have his wedge pressing as the "hammer" onto his phalanx - the sarisai of which are rendered in "dense array".

Arrian's description of Dareios fleeing faced with Alexander pressing in and with the Macedonian sarisai pressing at him in dense array always comes to mind.
Paralus, the problem with that (as Nylander demonstrated) is that the long spears on the right are intermingled with Persians and with a square standard which was still decorated with a bird of prey when it was first excavated. The first reference to anyone from the Aegean using a battle standard is a description of Alexander's mourning for Hephaistion, while the 'bird on a shield on a pole' fits Greek descriptions of Persian standards. So I read it as Alexandrians on the left, Darius and his driver in the centre, Persians on the right.

Until my journal article on this subject becomes available, there is also my article in AW, but Nylander demolishes the "pincer manoeuvre" theory.
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sean_m
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Re: Hephaistion in the mosaic?

Post by sean_m »

Steven Zucker has a convenient photo of the whole mosaic https://www.flickr.com/photos/profzucker/8215878366/, although the 19th century drawings which show it in a less damaged state are also useful. You can find reprints of those drawings in Carl Nylander's article.
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