Original statue of Alexander was found, built by Lysippos

Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

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Paralus
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Post by Paralus »

Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:What if I say the inscribed signature of Lysippos has been found on this statue?
What if I say a certificate of authenticity, supplied by the Hellenic accounting firm Timi, Potizo-spiti, Barelas, was found buried with it? You might just as well "what if" anything.

Is it possible you might write more than one-liners and bald assertions? Perhaps supplying some of the archaeological evidence that you assert is there - after all, it is you that posted the thread stating "original statue of Alexander found, built by Lysippus".
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Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Post by karen »

What if I say the inscribed signature of Lysippos has been found on this statue?
Has it? Pictorial evidence, please.

You are trying to convince us without giving us

- the name of the head archaeologist
- the date of the find
- where the archaeologist published about it
- whether or how it's been dated
- the archaeologist's, or indeed anyone's argument, other than your own, why it is depicts Alexander or was made by Lysippos
- even one news story about it (though it would be a major find)
- any link to anything about it that is a) in English b) not by you.
- enough information even to Google it.

Everyone on this forum is interested in Alexander and would love it if an original Lysippos depicting him was found. But we want to make sure it really is before we jump for joy. The above-listed information is basic for any archaeological find. Without providing that, how can you expect us even to begin to believe it?

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National Museum of Iran

Post by jan »

:D I have just read through all these comments and must admit that I do believe that a credible institution such as the National Museum of Iran would have probably done its homework before making such a statement about a piece of sculpture. If it is truly a work of Lysippus, and it is genuine, then it will certainly attract many tourists and alexderphiles to see it.

I find it fascinating that something so simple as a piece of statuary can arouse such debate. Cannot possibly imagine what would happen if a tomb with a body would create? :lol:

I actually like this piece of statuary...Alexander is looking good! (if it is truly Alexander, but gee whiz, a museum would not surely put its own credibility on the line without having made certain, would they?
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Re: National Museum of Iran

Post by marcus »

jan wrote::D I have just read through all these comments and must admit that I do believe that a credible institution such as the National Museum of Iran would have probably done its homework before making such a statement about a piece of sculpture. If it is truly a work of Lysippus, and it is genuine, then it will certainly attract many tourists and alexderphiles to see it.
The statement was not made by the National Museum of Iran, Jan. The photograph was a link to the museum, but (unless I missed it), there was no such claim by the museum that it was by Lysippos, or that it was of Alexander.

We still await the evidence ...

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Post by Cyrus Shahmiri »

I gave a link from a more credible Persian website (aftab.ir): http://www.aftab.ir/travel/iran/khozest ... figure.php

- the name of the head archaeologist: English Archaeologist Sir Aurel Stein
- the date of the find : 1943
- where the archaeologist published about it: Never, he died in this year.
I find it fascinating that something so simple as a piece of statuary can arouse such debate. Cannot possibly imagine what would happen if a tomb with a body would create?
There is also a tomb of Alexander in Ecbatana (Modern Hamedan), the summer capital of the Persian and Alexander empires (we know Alexander died in the summer), several Persian and Arab historians have mentioned this tomb, there was even a Greek inscription on the tomb which unfortunately has been lost.

"Stone Lion of Chaeronea", Greece (after the battle of Chaeronea in 338 BC) & "Stone Lion of Ecbatana", Iran (after the death of Alexander in 323 BC):

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Post by Paralus »

I gave a link from a more credible Persian website (aftab.ir): http://www.aftab.ir/travel/iran/khozest ... figure.php

As I've noticed: never anything in English.
Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:- the name of the head archaeologist: English Archaeologist Sir Aurel Stein
- the date of the find : 1943
- where the archaeologist published about it: Never, he died in this year.
The "head archaeologist" found it the year he died? Says it all really. No need to bother with this much further. Thanks for the visit.

Ps: When will you show us the "Lysippus" inscription?
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Did you read all the links? Marcus

Post by jan »

It said that the statue is in the National Museum of Iran and the link was the National Museum of Iran. I read all the links that pertained to this discovery on the threads given, and someone had asked what other finds were included with this one, so naturally I would suppose that one could go to the National Museum of Iran to see this bronze piece. I would imagine that the materials would have given the artist the reason for the end results...other artifacts found and the discussion of the Macedonians and yauna were quite interesting to me. I rather thought that cyrus was quoting his information from the museum so I do not know how to answer your argument. I think that the statue is quite attractive, and am certain that the artist was being complimentary in his design. I enjoyed reading all the threads at the links given. There were many useful comments as well. Jan
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Post by Cyrus Shahmiri »

Why do you think I want to tell a lie? We Iranians don't like this statue, in fact this is just a remembrance of the burn of Persepolis for us!

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Re: Did you read all the links? Marcus

Post by marcus »

jan wrote:It said that the statue is in the National Museum of Iran and the link was the National Museum of Iran. I read all the links that pertained to this discovery on the threads given, and someone had asked what other finds were included with this one, so naturally I would suppose that one could go to the National Museum of Iran to see this bronze piece. I would imagine that the materials would have given the artist the reason for the end results...other artifacts found and the discussion of the Macedonians and yauna were quite interesting to me. I rather thought that cyrus was quoting his information from the museum so I do not know how to answer your argument. I think that the statue is quite attractive, and am certain that the artist was being complimentary in his design. I enjoyed reading all the threads at the links given. There were many useful comments as well. Jan
I spent ages on the website of the National Museum of Iran, Jan. Unfortunately, I do not read Persian, and none of the links in the English version of the site were working. Therefore, I was unable to locate anywhere that stated that the bronze was of Alexander, or by Lysippos. So far we only have Cyrus' statement to go on.

I shall be in the National Museum of Iran on 4 April this year, and I shall, of course, be looking out for this piece. Hopefully there will be some information attached to it.

If it is Alexander, and if it is by Lysippos, why then do all the books that discuss Alexander sculptures say that no Lysippos originals are extant?

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Re: Did you read all the links? Marcus

Post by Paralus »

marcus wrote:Therefore, I was unable to locate anywhere that stated that the bronze was of Alexander, or by Lysippos. So far we only have Cyrus' statement to go on...
Indeed that is all we have.
marcus wrote:If it is Alexander, and if it is by Lysippos, why then do all the books that discuss Alexander sculptures say that no Lysippos originals are extant?
A much more polite version of my post above. As always Marcus, nature's gentleman.

It remains, though, a very cogent question. Not a single work - that I am aware of - makes a single reference to this supposed Lysippus. That such, discovered and known about since 1943, is not discussed anywhere is rather beyond comprehension.

Where a hitherto unknown coin of Alexander's to be discovered or even remnants of one of the altars built in India one could imagine the "noise" such a find would generate. Yet not a squeak about this supposedly original Lysippus of Alexander.

I am rather jealous of your trip Marcus. No....very. Perhaps the English translations will work...insitu?!
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Re: National Museum of Iran

Post by amyntoros »

marcus wrote:
jan wrote::D I have just read through all these comments and must admit that I do believe that a credible institution such as the National Museum of Iran would have probably done its homework before making such a statement about a piece of sculpture. If it is truly a work of Lysippus, and it is genuine, then it will certainly attract many tourists and alexderphiles to see it.
The statement was not made by the National Museum of Iran, Jan. The photograph was a link to the museum, but (unless I missed it), there was no such claim by the museum that it was by Lysippos, or that it was of Alexander.

We still await the evidence ...

ATB
Catching up with the thread ...

If the Metropolitan Museum of Art is anything to go by I would say that good museums are very hesitant to make claims as to the identity of a piece unless the evidence is irrefutable. Consider the little bronze statuette of "Alexander" wearing an elephant skin. It is now back on display in the new Hellenistic and Roman galleries and this what the Met has to say about it:
As Alexander the Great is represented with a similar elephant skin on coins minted by Ptolemy I of Egypt, this statuette may represent Alexander as ruler of Egypt. The figure has also been identified as Demetrios I of Bactria who is represented on coins wearing the scalp of an elephant in recognition of his conquests in India. Its monumental quality may signify that it reflects a famous large-scale equestrian statue.
Now, considering that this 3rd century statuette is "said to be from Athribrs in the Nile Delta. Egypt" I would think that it is more likely to be Alexander, but that's just my personal opinion. The curators of the museum are very careful not to commit, calling the work a "Bronze statuette of a rider wearing an elephant skin."

I visited the galleries today and there are further examples to be found everywhere. One of the guides explained to me about a Roman head (I forget who) which was found in an excavation with a name-plate also discovered nearby. The description says only that it may be the person named - a name-plate found nearby is NOT considered irrefutable evidence.

Soooo … in the unlikely event that the National Museum of Iran does say the bronze is a depiction of Alexander and that it was made by Lysippus I would want to know what their evidence is for these claims. We'll be waiting to hear from you, Marcus! :)

Best regards,
Amyntoros

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Post by Cyrus Shahmiri »

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This is from IRAN: seven faces of a civilization: http://www.sunrisefilmco.com/sevenidxin.html

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For the production of this documentary, many neglected achievements and forgotten treasures of Iranian civilization and culture have been recaptured once again through cumulative perspective of over 70 internationally known scholars who were personally interviewed throughout the world from 1993 to 2006.
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Great!

Post by jan »

Ohhh, I tried to get into the website for the National Museum of Iran but so far have not succeeded. I get only the navigation tools. I agree that this statue is questionable as for sculptor and subject, and said in my post, if it is Alexander. Frankly, I did not address the problem of whether it is Lysippus, but the original post did state that it is done by the great sculptor and so the quarrel with that is with Cyrus who is protesting his own innocence.

I hope that when Marcus does go to Iran that he will remember to clear this issue up as I would agree with him that if everyone does say that none exist, it would make one wonder as to why this one is being credited to him. Being discovered in 1943 makes it likely that it would have attracted much attention if it is an authentic Lysippos.

So don't worry, I accept all arguments and discussion about the authenticity. The point is that the bust or statue has weathered time so well and the characteristics of the face are well intact after 3,000 plus years, so that it is a beauty for anyone to see. The actual formation of Alexander's face is distorted and does not appear true to his own "known" visage, but again I credit that to the sculptor to make his own imprint upon the material with which he is working. I have noticed that on every coin and on every available bust that Alexander's profile and physical appearance appear to be different and never uniform. This certainly looks like a study in fatigue after a battle to me.

The eyes are downcast, the mouth is drawn and tight, almost morose, and the general overall appearance looks weary to me. But the brightness of the bronze, the carefully molded hair, and the attempt at making the neck appear a bit leaning if not twisted, the nose a bit gnarled suggest to me that the sculptor probably is portraying Alexander, no matter who the sculptor may have been.

The eyes of this piece remind me a bit of the ivory bust found at the tomb of Vergina also, so I am inclined to believe that it could be a depiction of Alexander possibly in gloom.

Yet, I will be happy when Marcus solves this problem in his trip to Iran this April.

I like the piece since it is not one of those flattering, insipid, "dreamy-eyed" idealistic pieces that some sculptors want to show so much. I do not really believe that Alexander was much taken in as others may think he was. So I like this one for being a bit more truthful about a bad day!
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To Cyrus,

Post by jan »

Thanks for the link to Iran, and I notice that the statue is used in your post to introduce us to Iran. May I ask why you believe that this statue is made by Lysippos?
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To All about Seven Faces of Iran

Post by jan »

I have googled Seven Faces of Iran and have found a vast amount of information about this film. It was shown at UCLA free of charge in October, 2007, and was presented in both Persian and English. Thanks again for the links. Now to get the music to stop.... :D
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