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Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

Hehe, no, the only source i know for this is of course Plato
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smittysmitty
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Post by smittysmitty »

Efthasio - you don't belong to this 'Hellenic Front' mob by any chance do you?

It seems many of your thoughts are in alignment with many of theirs. Greek supremacy, no homosexuals in Greece, 6000 year old Greek alpahbets, etc.

I rarely have time to spend on the internet these days, but doing a simple google search on some of your rather controversial topics and thoughts, the particular newspaper report you present, all seem to have affiliations with this "Greek Front'.

It is your life and your own mind, do as you please - but don't start pushing this sort of unsubstantiated crap upon other peiople.

To put it lightly, if you are part of such an organization or its belief, I would be pretty pissed off - and would rather have no more to do with you.

If moderators feel this message is too personal , that s ok its meant to be. I personally will not allow that kind of trash to go unmonitored.

cheers
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smittysmitty
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Post by smittysmitty »

And what pisses me off even more - is in the past you have had the nerve to suggest to me and others that we may have some sort of an agenda! Oh please.

Any way - not a happy smitty at the moment.

Thats life.

geez, to think I even responded to so many of your posts. Silly me.
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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

Hellenic front mob??? What is that? It must be new.

No, i am not part of anything. Not an organization, cult, or whatever else there might be. I dont know if you know any Greeks there in Australia but if you ask Michael he might tell you that many are full of unsubstanciated theories about all things ancient Greek, and a national pride.And that is normal i think. And also if you ask him what did he think of me when we met in Athens, i think he will tell you that i didnt have any weird tatoos (as far as he could see of course), rings, or a superiority attitude. At least i like to think that i didnt have one. I really enjoyed our meeting and our short convertations. I am more Alexander myself. Everyone is equal when given proper education e.t.c. No matter where he is coming from or what colour he is.

But you should know that Greeks in general have a strong national pride. And of course you can find all sorts of people. Those that are the exactly opossite, meaning anarchists e.t.c, and those that are at the other extreme. And all things in between. I dont know about the front that you mentioned, as i have stated i couldnt find any other mention of that find in the net, but surely there are organizations that are centered around ancient Greece and hellenism.

Heck, there are controversies between people that say that everything ancient Greek is the best, and others who say that the right thing is the Orthodox Christianism, and not the pagan tactics of the ancient Greeks. And people that blend these two saying that the ancient Greek spirit have sort of given its place to the Christian teachings. Our army also blends those two toghether, as they consider them both our herritage. The ancient Greek spirit and sayings, and the Orthodox faith.

smitty, i was waiting for you to lay all these down on me, and i think its a good thing, because i like to clear things up. I have nothing against you, or with any other member of this forum currently. And i say curently because during a search that i made i saw some old posts, before i registered here by someone that was from Skopja aka former Yugoslavic Republic of Macedonia, that surely may have had his own agenda.
but don't start pushing this sort of unsubstantiated crap upon other peiople
These unsubstanciated crap are unsubstanciated only because there is no official statement on the net, or at least from a site that you would think as a "serious" one?

You might be right, but i wouldnt call them unsubstanciated that easily. Read my earlier post where i explain why it is hard to find some things on the net.
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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

P.S I did a little search now for the hellenic front site. I found it in the Greek version and posted the link, in which it says "Hellenic lines" as a title, so i thought it ws just an online magazine or someting like that. Didnt look any further, you are correct. If you choose English a s language it says on the title "Hellenic front" and "Hellenic lines". :shock:
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Paralus
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Post by Paralus »

Efstathios wrote:if you ask Michael he might tell you that many are full of unsubstanciated theories about all things ancient Greek, and a national pride.And that is normal i think. And also if you ask him what did he think of me when we met in Athens, i think he will tell you that i didnt have any weird tatoos (as far as he could see of course), rings, or a superiority attitude. At least i like to think that i didnt have one. I really enjoyed our meeting and our short convertations.
Yes, it's an eduring pity that I had no more time: I had the Peloponnesus, Delphi and the rest of the country to get to in some six days! You should've come up to the bloody roof bar Sathi as I suggested: we went on until three am. (Yankees in a cutured city of immense history not knowing where to begin asking questions and supplying wine) Amazed I drove to Olympia via Mycenae and Argos the next day!

You know where there's a decent red should you follow lead of Nearchus' fleet to Oz.

I can vouch that Stathi sported no nationalist - or other - tattoos that I could see (or wanted to).

Stathi is a patriot and, I fear, that might lead to some suspended incredulity at times (sorry Stathi) - especially when it comes to the word wide web of (occasionally) disinformation.

The Hellenic heart is in the right place. Just a little too much blood to the wrong fingers on a keyboard every now and then??
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Ἐπὶ τοὺς πατέρας, ὦ κακαὶ κεφαλαί, τοὺς μετὰ Φιλίππου καὶ Ἀλεξάνδρου τὰ ὅλα κατειργασμένους;
Wicked men, you sin against your fathers, who conquered the whole world under Philip and Alexander.

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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

Yeah i suppose. But there is a reason why me, and many other Greeks are what we call patriots (and not nationalists). On the one hand we have a past with it's uniques, but it's faults too, and on the other hand our past has been full of wars and people that wanted to occupy Greece due to it's position. For four hundred years we have been under the Ottoman occupation, and then we became free again. And since then the neighboring country has demands over Greece's lands. It's all politics. But you understand why we are a little bit more patriotic than others. It's a matter not only of being proud about your ancestors, but for the present too, and future, to not let the blood that they shed in order for us to be free now, to go in vain. At any given time we may be called to arms, God forbid.

But anyhow, i try not to let this patriotism go over the edge. If i do, excuse me. As i said, i am more like Alexander. All people can be equal. If he ever believed this thought.
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Theseus
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Post by Theseus »

Efstathios wrote:
The priests were to the Egyptians what the philosophers were to the Greeks. Even Solon went to Egypt to converse with some of their priest.
You are making a parallelism. The Egyptian priests were keepers of knowlledge. As some of the Greek priests were also. Philosophy by definition at ancient Greece was the making of questions about life, nature, e.t.c, and in some occassions answering them. It was unconditional, and that is why some philosophers in Greece were hunted by the priests, and the establishment. Alike, priests in ancient Egypt could not practise philosophy in that extent.

But because the ancient Greeks had expanded the term philosophy as to be used ιn other occassions too, like "το λακωνιζειν εστιν φιλοσοφειν"= to live like they do in Laconia (Sparta in general) is like to philosophize, you can say that some things were like philosophy. Plutarch even said that Alexander practised philosophy with the way he had done the campaign. So in that manner, the Egyptian priests could have philosophized, as in their way of life, and researches on the knowledge they had.

Solon though went to Egypt to seek knowledge. The Egyptians had a big amount of written and oral knowledge recorded, which went back thousands of years.
I don't think you fully grasped what I was trying to express. The Egyptian Priests were held very highly in Egyptian culture (as were the Philosophers of Greece) not only for their knowledge of things, but also to seek out their advice. Even Alexander himself went to Siwa to consult with the high priest. If you want to call that a parallelism that's fine. I'm not sure if I'm making sense or not, I've had a long day. :? I'm not here to argue with anyone. :)
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Post by Semiramis »

efstathios wrote:i said in an earlier post that Alexander didnt have Cyrus at the same level as Achillees. Not that he didnt admire him. And i also said that the Greeks generally, and especially these that lived at the era of the Persian wars, and fought in them, didnt think much of any Persian.
OK, let's come to a compromise here. :) Let's say Alexander tried to emulate Achilles as a warrior. But that still leaves him free to want to emulate Cyrus and a King, conquerer, ruler, administrator and law maker, right? Let's not start a debate about who he looked up to more... Because we can never really know that! And it's the weekend...
Theseus wrote:The Egyptian Priests were held very highly in Egyptian culture (as were the Philosophers of Greece) not only for their knowledge of things, but also to seek out their advice.
I have to agree with Theseus here. The works of Imhotep for example were referred to as "Egyptian Philosophy" by the Greeks themselves. Now, there is definitely a trend in modern scholarship to say that the Greeks "invented" philosophy. That for reasons x, y and z the Egyptian ... em... thoughts... could not be considered philosophy. I think the Greeks in the oldern days would've had a good laugh about this. :)

efstathios,

The debate about nationalism, I'm trying to take a step back here. Unfortunately, we live in an age where the "clash of civilizations" theorem is touted about as fact. The Empiring language of civilizing and enlightening other nations is back. It's not rare to see chest thumping articles glorifying the unique wonderfulness of "Western" values (enlightenment, humanist, Judeo-Christian... take your pick) even in "liberal" publications. The Greeks being the ancestors of Western Europeans and their descendants (naturally...:?: ), are sometimes blessed/cursed with this unique wonderfulness by some modern historians. Persians etc. being the ancestors of the generic "other", are treated in the opposite manner. It seems, unfortunately, even a debate about ancient history can be affected by our very modern biases. That's why you may find that these days some people have a short fuse when it comes to any perceived nationalistic strain. Saying that, I find your posts very interesting and informative. Even if some of your proposals (like the origins of the Greek alphabet) will need a lot more evidence to convince me. ;)
smittysmitty wrote:Semiramis, welcome to Pothos - I enjoy reading your posts. Smile I find myself agreeing with many points you make and I have always believed the Argeads attempted to emulate the Achaemenids.
Thanks for the warm welcome. I'd love to hear more about your thoughts on why you think the Argeads tried to emulate the Achaemenids. I think it's most obvious with Phillip (not counting the Great one). The Athenian "empire" too probably did a fair amount of Persia-gazing. :)
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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

But that still leaves him free to want to emulate Cyrus and a King, conquerer, ruler, administrator and law maker, right?
Yes of course, and it is almost certain that in that section he was influenced by Cyrus as well.

About the other stuff, that's why Paralus used the word patriot and not nationalist. Because patriotism is something purer in it's essence. It's not extreme. You are right, about the west east thing, but it's something that needs a big discussion.

Also, a debate is a necessary element of a discussion, when it is of course within the code of conduct, and from it sometimes the truth may unveal, or usefull conclusions.

And something else. Sometime ago, a member of this forum told me in a personal message that my posts in a debate that we had 1-2 years ago, that with the mistranslations from ancient Greek to English, in ancient texts, Arrian e.t.c, intrigued her and led her to start learning Greek. Now, this really touched me. It was the first time that someone told me that he/she was inspired by something that i said, even if it was nonsense (which i believe it wasnt), and led him/her to start learning Greek, in the particular situation.

That shows, that good things can come out of a debate, but it also shows us that we must be carefull at the things we say. And i will try to remember that more often.
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Theseus
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Post by Theseus »

Theseus wrote:The Egyptian Priests were held very highly in Egyptian culture (as were the Philosophers of Greece) not only for their knowledge of things, but also to seek out their advice.
I have to agree with Theseus here. The works of Imhotep for example were referred to as "Egyptian Philosophy" by the Greeks themselves. Now, there is definitely a trend in modern scholarship to say that the Greeks "invented" philosophy. That for reasons x, y and z the Egyptian ... em... thoughts... could not be considered philosophy. I think the Greeks in the oldern days would've had a good laugh about this. :)

Why thank you! :D I'm glad I was making some sense and am very happy to see someone else that knows who Imhotep is/was. Did you happen to see the special on the Discovery channel where they are pretty positive they found his tomb & mummy?
I had said in an earlier post that I have researched ancient Egypt since I was a child and hope I have earned an understanding and appreciation of their history. I also appreciate the Greeks. I have a friend that is from Greece and she's so tickled that I now have such a strong interest in her native country's history.
I long for wealth, but to win it by wrongful means I have no desire. Justice, though slow, is sure.
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Post by Semiramis »

That show definitely sounds like it's worth checking out. Is it called "The Lost Mummy of Imhotep" by any chance? There is one single book on Imhotep in my university library. Published in 1928. Don't know whether to laugh or cry about that one...:?

I've had this interest with history, myth and religion from childhood as well. Do you think it has something to do with escapist tendencies? :lol:
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Theseus
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Post by Theseus »

Semiramis wrote:That show definitely sounds like it's worth checking out. Is it called "The Lost Mummy of Imhotep" by any chance? There is one single book on Imhotep in my university library. Published in 1928. Don't know whether to laugh or cry about that one...:?

I've had this interest with history, myth and religion from childhood as well. Do you think it has something to do with escapist tendencies? :lol:
That's the show. :D Did you happen to catch the most recent special Queen Hatshpesut? I have admired Professor Hawass for years. I had really wanted to go to college for Egyptology, but with severe asthma I had to let go of that dream. The tombs have so much bacteria and dust it's hard for even healthy lungs to function properly.

I'm not sure of why we have both been interested in these things since childhood. There are only certain times that I am very interested in, all others don't even spark an interest in me. Is it the same for you? In school, American History bored me to death, but World History was another thing all together. :lol:
I long for wealth, but to win it by wrongful means I have no desire. Justice, though slow, is sure.
"Solon Fragment 13" poem
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Efstathios
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Post by Efstathios »

Everything that has to do with ancient Egypt is interesting. One of the most interesting recent discoveries is the hall below and in front of the sphinx. It was detected by the use of sismic waves, or something like that. It could be one of the greatest finds, as it is said that a room under the shpinx holds the knowledge that the ancient Egyptians had gathered through the milleniums, and even more ancient than theirs, and ancient relics. Anything could be down there. But the Egyptian goverment wont allow any digs there. They must find a way to get there by digging a tunnel or something.
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Theseus
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Post by Theseus »

Efstathios wrote:Everything that has to do with ancient Egypt is interesting. One of the most interesting recent discoveries is the hall below and in front of the sphinx. It was detected by the use of sismic waves, or something like that. It could be one of the greatest finds, as it is said that a room under the shpinx holds the knowledge that the ancient Egyptians had gathered through the milleniums, and even more ancient than theirs, and ancient relics. Anything could be down there. But the Egyptian goverment wont allow any digs there. They must find a way to get there by digging a tunnel or something.
I had seen this as well. There is so much left to find there and in Greece as well I believe.
I have just gotten a book on some things found in Vergina and it's thought to be Phillip II tomb as well as many other royalty of Macedon. Do you know of any more tombs that have been found there recently? It's very exciting. I can't imagine the feeling of finding and holding some artifact from thousands of years ago, especially if it were from Alexander himself.I hope they do find his tomb/body, but I fear it's under water with the rest of ancient Alexandria. :(
I long for wealth, but to win it by wrongful means I have no desire. Justice, though slow, is sure.
"Solon Fragment 13" poem
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