Alexander as Achiles King

Discuss the culture of Alexander's world and his image in art

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kennyxx
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Alexander as Achiles King

Post by kennyxx »

Ive often wondered and read the hatred Between Achilles and Agamemnon. An wondered woulkd Achilles have served Alexander as his king.

I watched to movie and read the books and at first thought yes he would follow a noble warrior king like Alexander. Then on second thoughts I thought hed maybe hate Alexander as much as he did Agamemnon. Due to the fact that next to Alexander Achilles would really have no glory or fame. Alexander would and actually did over shadow Achilles very early on. Achilles was a warrior basically confind to Troy yet Alexander went further than any Western Hero or god before him.

So on reflection I am sure maybe Achilles would hold just as big a gridge as he did against Agamemnon.?

Kenny
philalexandros

Post by philalexandros »

Interesting thought.
I had never thought about something like that...
Achilles had an interesting personality. Wether or not he would have served Alexander without grudge or complaint is difficult to tell. Alexander was well liked by all of his men as we know however, maybe Achilles would have felt 'outdone' by Alexander. Achilles wanted glory he aspired to obtain it, and that is what makes great history and great personalities behind the history.
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marcus
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Re: Alexander as Achiles King

Post by marcus »

kennyxx wrote:Due to the fact that next to Alexander Achilles would really have no glory or fame. Alexander would and actually did over shadow Achilles very early on. Achilles was a warrior basically confind to Troy yet Alexander went further than any Western Hero or god before him.
Not sure I agree with you there, Kenny, but I know what you're saying.

I do think it's unfair to Achilles to say "basically confined to Troy yet Alexander went further ..." because the Achaeans weren't on a mission to conquer the whole world - they were on a mission to take Troy. As it was, Achilles was a key figure in the Achaeans' conquests up and down the Aegean coast, fighting Troy's allies (not all the fighting took place at Troy itself), and much of the loot and treasure they had all gathered came from Achilles' raids. So he wasn't just confined to Troy, and was clearly the biggest honcho the Achaeans had.

If Agamemnon had decided to move past Troy and take the whole world, then no doubt Achilles, if he were still alive, would have been a major player.

ATB

Marcus

PS: I'm sure you're not doing this, but don't base an idea of Achilles solely on the "Troy" film. I didn't think the film was too bad in its portrayal of Achilles, but it certainly didn't give the whole story.
kennyxx
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Post by kennyxx »

Marcus Hi

Your reasoning is good. I would say that the siege of Troy is basically myth based on something that did happen centuries before Alexander. However if the story was true then it was a pretty poor showing by the Hreeks. I cant think of any siege throughout the whole of military history that lasted any where near 10 years.

The Greeks had the man powe so called a thousand ships to hold the Aegian and had Troy totally surrounded. Tyre was an Island fortress with a good hand in the naval sea command until Alexanderwon overships and Tyre only lasted 6 months. If it took Achilles and the boys 10 years with a wooden horse trick then it dont stack up too well for Greek military prowess. Nor Achilles the guy dipped in the River stix to make him invincible. Alexander has got to be rated above these cowboys.

As you say Achilles probably did some scrapping round and about Troy but apart from Cheating against Hector we dont hear much about the great hero. Theres nothing heroic about a guy protected by a force field. As I said before Achilles was playig a stacked deck. I wouldnt fancy Alexanders chances in single combat. Its kinda like a mouse taking on a Dalek. After Alexanders first VIctory he went further than Achiles.

Kenny
Alexias
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Re: Alexander as Achiles King

Post by Alexias »

It should be remembered that Achilles served Agamemnon for nearly ten years before they fell out because Achilles felt Agamemnon didn't value his contribution to the war. Alexander, on the other hand, seems to have been quite adept at man-management and kept a group of very competent, ambitious, quarrelsome and powerful commanders working with him, and each other, for ten years. Or perhaps they knew he would crush them (or personally kill them) if they went against him. Agamemnon wasn't that ruthless.

Achilles probably would have respected Alexander as king, but could Alexander have withstood the loyalty of Achilles' Myrmidons / It would have been something he would have been jealous of.
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Susa the Great
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Re: Alexander as Achiles King

Post by Susa the Great »

Alexias wrote: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:35 pm but could Alexander have withstood the loyalty of Achilles' Myrmidons / It would have been something he would have been jealous of.
I have always wondered why Alexander was so taken by the Iliad. Now I understand that realities are so hard to swallow sometimes. That is why some people go to fiction for some solace when faced with the sometimes nasty reality... Alexander would never have Myrmidons outta his company, at least not 100% loyalty as Achilles had.

This may have been the deal with Alexander and his silver-fishing the Iliad. And there is also the shocking similarities between both personas: Achilles's temper is too much like Alexander's, which might have been an additive to Alex's love for the story. Indeed an amazing similarity , I mean, both men. The Patroklos part is included. So Weird.
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