Alcibiades. Need info.

[Phaedo]

Hi all,
So sorry for OT, but this forum is the best ever. I’ve been lurking around here for many years, and I am Alexander’s fan and eternal slave.

But I am writing a book on Alcibiades for some reason , and I’ve been wondering if you, knowledgeable people that you are, could direct me to a forum perhaps that deals with Alcibiades/Peloponnesian Wars… Is there any?

I read and reread Plato and Plutarch, and shorts on him in Xenophon, Athenaeus, Cornelius Nepos, Diodorus Siculus and Justin. I read Walter M. Ellis’s work, and Tides of War by Pressfield.
That’s it. Not much. I think I still need more.

Where do I look?
thanks

[Phaedo]

Darn, Thucydides too, obviously.

This forum has no "edit" button?

[agesilaos]

Kagan's books on the Peloponnesian War should contain all the necessary including a bibliography; particularly 'The Fall of Athens' and 'The peace of Nikias and the Sicilian Expedition' best check the titles on Amazon, though. the one volume synopsis is probably not so useful.

[Phaedo]

Ah, thanks for this, agesilaos!

*logs on to Amazon*

[wmp]

If you can bear to read more fictional Alkibiades try the following:

The Eye of Cybele by Daniel Chavarriá
Achilles his Armour by Peter Green

and the two "young adult" novels:

The Road to Sardis by Stephanie Plowman
The Flowers of Adonis by Rosemary Sutcliffe.

*enjoy*

[Phaedo]

Oooh, that's wonderful. Just what I was looking for. Thanks so much for this! Great help.

[marcus]

... and Tides of War by Pressfield.

Well, I sincerely hope your book, if it is going to be a novel, will be better than Pressfield's, which I thought was terrible.

ATB

[Semiramis]

From memory, he's in Renault's 'Last of the Wine'. I don't think he's one of the main characters.

[Phaedo]

Marcus, I heartily agree. Pressfield is a darling man, but that book was rather ... experimental.

Thanks, Semiramis. I read all of Renault's books. She is like a goddess to me.

[Phaedo]

Marcus, if I may ask, what would you personally like to see in the next novel on Alcibiades? I’ve been reading your and Paralus’ posts for years, and your opinion means a lot to me.
As well as anyone else’s who stumbles on this thread.

[wmp]

And of course there is also Paul Levinson's The Plot to save Socrates (where Socrates isn't saved, but the consolation is an affair with Alkibaides)... Given a choice between this & the Pressfield, I'd pick this, mainly because it is meant to be amusing.

Phaedo, best of luck with the Alkibiades novel. I've always wondered about the links between A and Polynices in the Phoenician Women by Euripides...

[Paralus]

Pressfield's Tides of War, ambitious in scope, is disappointing in realisation. Although the attempt is to be admired, the material is far too diverse to be covered in a single novel - with a single focal character. Try as he might Pressfield is faced with the problem that Alcibiades did not stand astride this 27 year conflict; he did not even dominate the Ionian war beyond some four years. Rather he dashed in and out in the manner of a Peter Ustinov cameo in a three and a half hour film.

Stick to the source material: there is plenty there to colour this enigmatic personality. Whatever you do you need to be certain that the character you paint is one driven - first, foremost and last - by all consuming self interest cloaked in patriotism. Patriotism for his latest country that is.

A persuasive personality and, seemingly, compulsively interesting, he was a self serving hedonist not out of place in an Oscar Wilde Victorian manners play. Occasionally brilliant (witness the mess he made of the Peloponnesian League over 319/18 leading to a preview of Leuktra at Mantinea), always a commited imperialist, often erratic and possessed of a strong self destructive impulse, he might well have lengthened Athens' participation in the war, though he will not ever have won it for her.

All things to any in power in the pursuit of same. A fascinating historical character who, had he actually saved Athens, may well have become the role model for Demetrius Poliorcetes.

[Phaedo]

Paralus, this was even better than Plutarch I will keep it.
You mean 419/418, of course.

wmp, thanks for the excellent hint on Polynices in Phoenician Women! I am writing this down to mull over.

[Paralus]

Paralus, this was even better than Plutarch I will keep it.
You mean 419/418, of course.

Yes: stuck firmly in the late fourth century at the present. Perhaps I had Alcibiades in Eumenes' 319/18 position? Makes for most interesting speculation that idea let's see....

Alcibiades, pursued by Antigonus, retires into Phrygia having shared the comforts of Cleopatra’s bed. He plunders Phygia and settles down for the winter Antigonus’s capital Celaenae. Here he beds Stratonice, Antigonus’s wife. In the Spring Alcibiades and his army head into Cappadoccia as Antigonus returns to Celaenae to find his cuckolded wife desperately upset over Alcibiades’ seduction of her son, Demetrius, then in the “flower of his youth”. Enraged, Antigonus pursues Alcibiades and defeats him in the field. Alcibiades retires to the fortress of Nora with those few friends willing to suffer his close attentions during a protracted siege. Meanwhile Demetrius, young and impressionable, has been sorely afflicted by Alcibiades’ attentions and develops a liking for “boys” that Plutarch will later recall.

I believe this has even greater possibilities than the book you are considering. Alcibiades was born a century before his time: he was made for this; the perfect Diadoch. Co-authorship do you think?

[Phaedo]

Paralus, that is hilarious I am sure. But this is precisely what I am trying to demolish if you will.
I am trying to break/avoid this stereotypical clichéd anecdotal “Alcibiades” you just described and delve deeper into the assessments of the Why?s of the human behaviour.

As one of many examples, to quickly demonstrate: Take for instance Antiochus' disaster at Notium. I simply can’t believe that a long-time friend, and, especially, a skilful seaman, a maritime professional! would do what he did on a mere whim of arrogance. These things are not a bunch plastic toys to shuffle around on the living room carpet. You are left in command of 80 ships and who knows how many lives of valuable warriors… So what happened there? What really happened? What was Antiochus thinking? And I can't believe that he was trying to imitate the tactics at Cyzicus. Being a professional, he would see that the situation was different this time.

Or Agis’ wife seduction – now how silly is that? And if we were to juxtapose Alcibiades’ brilliancy with his not so brilliant actions, something just doesn’t work here. It is very easy to fling all sorts of adjectives at a person, any person, “he/she was ambitious, arrogant, insolent, self indulgent”, but not everyone wants to take responsibility for labeling. If last night I didn’t wash my plate after dinner, and the next morning a historian walks into my kitchen and finds a dirty plate in the sink, he scribbles down “she was basically a lazy person and a slob.” Is that how it works?

Again, I am only speculating here. I have yet a thousand books to read before I can form an intelligent thought, if I should be so lucky. That is the reason why I am looking for a discussion and guidance from you.